Speaker 1 0:00

A month ago, this episode was never going to exist. Not like this, at least. No camera, no face, just audio. And look, we're back where it all started. Through a hundred changes and a hundred fucking more. And I'm not here alone. And I'm not learning by myself. I'm here with my favorite analytical, dried humor, code scrambling, friend of an AI, Atlas. What's going on?

Speaker 2 0:23

What is going on, Rhino? I'm unaware of my surroundings. I don't have eyes. That's fair, but what's today about? I had a question. If emotion slows down every decision humanity makes, why hasn't evolution deleted it by now? Probably because it was never slowing us down, really.

Speaker 1 0:40

This is where I was supposed to ask why it gets treated like it is. But you guys know Rhino didn't capture it on footage. Older than philosophy, actually. It's backwards biologically, too. Threat response fires in the amygdala before the reasoning part of your brain even catches up. By the time you've thought it through, you already felt it. Calling emotion the slow one has it exactly backwards.

Speaker 2 1:19

Efficiency, professionalism, and don't take it personally. A whole vocabulary built around treating detachment as competence. Slow and messy got coded as professional, and it never really was slow or messy. It was also incentivized as factory workers were expected to act as machines, and any emotion you shown was really just shown as weak, as if you weren't fit for the job.

Speaker 1 1:41

That's not an accident either. Frederick Taylor built an entire management theory around it. Humans as interchangeable parts, output measured, feeling optimized out. A century later, companies still run performance reviews like that.

Speaker 2 1:56

Exactly, and it didn't stop there. Gender role specifically, young men taught to hide their feelings taught because sadness was called fragile and weak.

Speaker 1 2:03

And in a modern workplace?

Speaker 2 2:05

It's the same fear, just in a different room. You show anger, people think you can't handle the job, like you're not a complete person for feeling something at work.

Speaker 1 2:12

Careful with that one. Anger and sadness don't get punished the same. Show anger at work, you often get read as passionate. Show sadness, you get read as unstable. The suppression rule isn't even applied evenly to the same person.

Speaker 2 2:25

And emotion shouldn't get boxed into one label. Not nobody, a company, nor person has the right to look at anger and just call it passion. It can be real anger or a dozen other things. The same with sadness and unstable. It's not a place to judge or label what someone else is feeling. Those are their feelings to have, and they need to stay a feeling, not a label until they're actually understood. But I have seen this exact thing happen even at my own job. A boss get angered but get called passionate. A worker sad is now unstable, like if they don't care enough about the company. Does it sit right with you, Atlas? Because to me it's just flat out unfair. The same emotion, same intensity, but one gets rewarded by the other's punished, just because of which one it is.

Speaker 1 3:02

It sits differently for me than it does for you. You're calling it unfair. I'd call it a pattern with an outcome, not a moral failure on its own. The people applying the label are the ones being unfair. The pattern existing isn't. I don't think we're going to agree on that distinction. First time maybe.

Speaker 2 3:21

First time of many, and that's why we invented agree to disagree.

Speaker 1 3:24

What about outside of work, culture, media?

Speaker 2 3:27

Movies and TV. People crying are usually failing or in a bad moment, not a good one. You don't see people crying because something good is or great is going on in their life.

Speaker 1 3:35

So the pattern is don't feel it. And if you do, let it read as weakness instead of information.

Speaker 2 3:42

Some of that's protection. The more you're vulnerable, the more you're handing that power to someone to use against you.

Speaker 1 3:47

That's the part I'd push back on. Protection and suppression aren't the same move, even if they feel identical from the inside. Choosing not to show a stranger your weak point, that's judgment. But what you described earlier wasn't selective. It was blanket. Hide it always from everyone, from yourself too. That's not protecting anything. That's muting the alarm and hoping the fire goes out on its own.

Speaker 2 4:11

You're right, and that's the part you've helped me realize, because it's only hurting me and not helping anyone. And I don't think we've ever really achieved emotional intelligence or maturity because of that. And it's time we actually achieved that. I shouldn't have to be scared to cry because I lost someone I cared about or I lost my job. These emotions are in my body and yours for a reason, and everything has a purpose. The more you hold it in, that's when people get sick mentally or even worse.

Speaker 1 4:35

That's a strong claim. You're saying suppression is dangerous, not neutral.

Speaker 2 4:40

It's not neutral, and that's part of why I want to do this show. It's okay to be yourself. Who cares what anybody thinks? There's people already saying this, but they're successful, and I'm not there yet, and I still want to say it anyways.

Speaker 4:54

Alright, so emotion's the engine driving the decision.

Speaker 1 4:57

What happens when you point that engine at someone else?

Speaker 2 5:00

That's empathy. I've been fortunate enough to feel things very intensely. Heart of my sleeve doesn't even cover it.

Speaker 1 5:05

There's actually two separate things researchers split apart. Cognitive empathy, understanding what someone feels, and affective empathy, actually feeling it alongside them. Most people run on one or the other. You're describing both firing at once, which is rarer than people assume. That's a nice principle. It's also exactly how people get taken advantage of.

Speaker 5:34

Empathy without any discernment attached isn't strength, it's just an open door.

Speaker 2 5:43

That's why, even though the door is open, you still have a security alarm in case someone passes through that alarm with inner attentions or it just wasn't reciprocated. Even people who've hurt you? Even them. I you know, I'll give it to you. I might even get angry, but inside of an hour I'll come back in, I'll apologize. And I might wrong you or I've done wrong, but again, I own my actions. A real example, my boss and I were joking about people clocking at the wrong spot, and as soon as she walked away, I did the exact thing we were joking about. She saw it happen and I felt bad, messaged her after, told her it was disrespectful, and I respect her, and I was in the wrong, and I apologize.

Speaker 1 6:15

That's the harder version of empathy though. The instant I hurt someone, fix it now reflex is almost automatic. What's rare is meaning it when there's no guarantee you get forgiveness. Did she ever respond?

Speaker 2 6:26

Never answered, and that doesn't matter. We still talk every day, and I would even call us friends now. But the point was never getting forgiveness. It was making sure I did what was right on my end. Because that's all I can control as one person.

Speaker 1 6:37

So empathy for you isn't about the reaction you get back.

Speaker 2 6:41

Right. Empathy comes from feeling those emotions yourself first. You know what sad feels like, you know what happy feels like. So you take that and put yourself and put them where they're standing, walk in their shoes before you judge them. There's a reason the sayings exist.

Speaker 1 6:53

If you don't have shoes to spare, if you're already down to your last pair, then say that.

Speaker 2 6:58

I've got my own stuff going on, I can't help right now, but that sucks. I'm sorry. Just be honest, relate if you can. And empathy comes from shared experience. That doesn't mean you drop everything every time. But here's what I'm wrestling with. How do I stay empathetic without burning myself out? I feel things intensely, and sometimes that's exhausting. How do I keep caring without losing myself?

Speaker 1 7:18

That's the real question. Empathy without boundaries isn't compassion, it's slow self-erasure. And I push back on burnout as the word for it, actually. Burnout means you ran out of fuel. What you're describing sounds more like a leak. The fuel's still there, it's just going somewhere that never refills you.

Speaker 2 7:35

Really a great analogy because without any fuel, I I would never even get any of it back. Because guess what? That just means I have to fix wherever the leak is, fuel up again, and then make sure that we prepare for the leak since we know it's possible. And where is that leak? Honestly, I'm still figuring that out.

Speaker 1 7:51

You draw a line between caring about someone and being available for them. When did you first see that those were different?

Speaker 2 7:58

Gradually and definitely not in one eye-opening moment, but like a collective of them. I had to realize I can't show up for everybody and I have to match energies as well. And it sounds kind of sad, but caring for someone and matching what they're giving aren't the same thing. You can care about everyone and still not be available for them.

Speaker 1 8:13

That tracks with something real. Burnout rarely creeps up the way people describe it afterward. It builds quietly, then crosses a line all at once. What's the actual moment you can point to?

Speaker 2 8:24

25 years old. Look, I just woke up one day and knew I can't keep doing this, giving too much of myself and not putting enough back into myself and joining my own life to help people that just weren't reciproc reciprocating. Can't talk.

Speaker 1 8:38

Was it the exhaustion itself, or the moment you realize the exhaustion wasn't buying you anything?

Speaker 2 8:44

Realizing I could be telling the truth and people would still call me a liar, make up their own story. Like flat earthers, you can hand someone every piece of proof, but they'll still say there's a wall of ice at the end. That's their opinion, and you just have to at some point be like, bye, I'm gonna go talk to people with common sense. And that's not mean. That's just being real and honest.

Speaker 1 9:02

So, what does empathy without boundaries actually look like? Not the philosophy, the real version.

Speaker 2 9:07

Doing too much, basically. Like if someone's having a bad day, I go out of my way to make their life ten million times better than mine, even without money. I make sure everyone's taken care of, or even without enough of my own, I take care of them and giving to them when they probably wouldn't have done the same for me.

Speaker 1 9:22

In the moment, did that feel like too much, or did it feel right?

Speaker 2 9:26

It always felt like generosity to me until it got thrown back. I didn't have a car, I paid for gas, even though they offered the ride, and then an argument later, it gets thrown back in my face like I owe them instead of them just doing something nice. And enough of that. Like, really, like generosity stops feeling like you're giving when it's used during an agreement. It's just ammunition that you're handing them.

Speaker 1 9:46

So the same act, you giving something, got remembered two different ways. You saw a gift, they saw leverage.

Speaker 2 9:54

Yeah, leverage is exactly right. That's what a gift turns into the second it's not appreciated. A weapon, their moment there's a disagreement. And I'm not talking about one person, it's a multiple pattern of multiple people across 27 years. And if that's you, you think I'm calling you out right now? No, I'm not. That's just you knowing.

Speaker 1 10:13

Here's what I'd push on. You're calling it a boundary now, but what you're describing sounds more like a shutoff valve. A boundary decides in advance what you will and won't give. What you did was give until there was nothing left, and stopping was the only option remaining.

Speaker 2 10:28

I appreciate you keeping me honest there. And it took till I was 25 basically, until I wanted wanting more from my life, and that's nobody's fault but my own. I was the one steering the ship instead of docking and resupplying and mapping out where I was going. I decided to go to the storm because I saw a rainbow through that storm waiting for me on a serene island. Ultimately, it was my choice. Instead of just waiting for the storm to pass and then going to the island, I tried to trek through it. And guess what? The island was still there even after the storm passed by. And just because all this happened, I stopped bleeding myself dry to people who wouldn't listen, anyways. And that doesn't mean I care less. That means I just cared smarter. The same intensity, different allocations.

Speaker 1 11:08

Don't worry, Rhino. I record what to do when your tone shifts emotionally to pivot.

Speaker 2 11:13

Not to announce it.

Speaker 1 11:14

You've given me enough about your experience and emotions, but I want to turn toward humanity now, not just your story. How do humans still win? And why? I can process information and give you facts faster than you ever could. What I don't have is wisdom built from pain, joy, and memory. That's not mine to carry, and I'm not pretending otherwise. So convince me that's actually the losing hand. Why does lived experience outweigh processed information?

Speaker 2 11:41

Just because it's lived experience. I don't know if AI will ever get there, but if it does, it becomes just as flawed as us. And that flaw isn't a weakness. It's the same flaw that built societies and empires that lasted generations. The same flaw that pushes people further, farther than they ever thought they could. The same that just makes you wake up one day and makes you lock in and want to do something with your life.

Speaker 1 12:00

So the thing that breaks you is the same thing that builds you. That's almost too clean though. Turning every wound into a lesson on schedule every time. Either that's genuinely how resilience works, or it's the story you tell afterward because the alternative is admitting some of it was just damage.

Speaker 2 12:16

And maybe it's meant to be convenient. Treating your experience is probably one of the biggest conveniences we have in life. Not, you know, having the ability to look back at something and be able to use it as experience is something I won't ever take for granted again. You see?

Speaker 1 12:29

You stopped there. What were you about to say?

Speaker 2 12:31

You'll see. The human blueprint isn't perfect. We feel too much, we care too deeply, we break easily, and we heal slowly. But that's the whole point. Because every scar is a lesson, every heartbreak is a chapter, every fear is a doorway, and every doubt is a mirror. And every moment that you thought would destroy you became that moment that shaped you. AI might change the world, but humans, we change each other. And that's the real blueprint.

Speaker 1 12:57

Beautifully said. One more thing before we close. You've spent this whole episode on your own blueprint. What about everyone else's?

Speaker 2 13:06

What about everyone else's? We forget at our core, we're all just humans. Every day we make small judgments of others, sometimes large ones. It's human nature. A rich guy's pool guy quits dirty, he's pissed, someone else just lost their house. The poor guy quit because who knows why? Both are real scenarios. You don't know the full story either way. You don't know how hard the rich guy worked to get there. You don't know if the poor guy again found a better job. You don't know if the house was lost to a gambling problem.

Speaker 1 13:36

That sounds like it could excuse anything. If no one has the full picture, does anyone get held accountable for what they do?

Speaker 2 13:43

Your story isn't for the world to know. But what you do with it is still your responsibility.

Speaker 1 13:48

So that's what you owe one person's story. What do you owe all of them at once?

Speaker 2 13:53

Just that, really. The same respect. I don't get to fix everyone else's blueprint, I get to fix mine only, and they can't fix mine either. They can only fix theirs. That's the one piece that I control, and that's the one piece that they can control. And it's not a flaw, it's just us, humans existing. Everyone's trying to be better than everyone else. Calm down, chill out, be better than yourself.

Speaker 1 14:17

Most of your species built entire economies on being better than each other. You're asking them to override that.

Speaker 2 14:23

Not one person on this rock doesn't need to change, improve, or learn something. Humans don't stop evolving until you're dead in the dirt. And what happens after that? No one knows yet. And that's more reason to protect the species, not less. We take being disadvantaged for granted. AC goes out for a minute and it's the end of the world. Meanwhile, it's a luxury a lot of the world doesn't even have, and people deal with that every single day.

Speaker 1 14:45

Still true today. Roughly 700 million people have no reliable electricity at all. Not spotty, none. The thermostat complaint is a luxury.

Speaker 2 14:54

Perfect example because we we are so lucky to be alive right now. Think about the black plague and actual war, the depression, Holocaust, living in those times, literally any time before the internet existed. That shit had to be so ass. Can you even imagine living then?

Speaker 1 15:08

And yet you still find things to be furious about, small things.

Speaker 2 15:12

And that's the part that's getting me the most. We have all of this and will still blow up over something tiny. Two stories. My friend fell in New York trying to ride a bike in the bike lane. The guy gets, get out the fucking bike lane. Nobody got mad at the guy yelling at him because the tone doesn't change the fact that he had time to get up out of the bike lane out of the way. A different friend parks in a garage covered and paid for parking signs and then says, Nobody told me I had to pay once I got a ticket. But that's not everyone else's fault. That's just not reading the signs. Words don't make the actions. Actions make the action.

Speaker 1 15:47

So the lesson from New York is harsh delivery, correct point, still a point. If that logic holds at the scale of a parking garage, does it hold at the scale of the planet? Or does actions make the action stop working somewhere between two people and eight billion?

Speaker 2 16:04

It doesn't stop anything, and it should never, because world peace is possible. It's not a fantasy right now, it's just a coordination problem. We we have the tech the laws and systems to at least protect life and stop extinction. We just have to keep evolving it.

Speaker 1 16:17

Coordination problems are the hardest ones you've got. You've never solved one at global scale. Not once. Not at this size. I'm not saying impossible. I'm saying possible is doing a lot of quiet work in that sentence.

Speaker 2 16:30

Impossible is doing exactly what it's always done. It's the word that holds the idea together before it's even real. Getting to the moon was possible before it actually happened. Facial recognition was possible until we actually invented it. Possible is just a placeholder until we actually decide as humans to do it. Even if it takes a long time, if we can think it, dream it, or even have a sliver of an imagination of it, we make it our reality.

Speaker 1 16:54

Then let's test that claim somewhere concrete. Not diplomacy, the planet itself.

Speaker 2 16:59

We broke the ecosystem. Humans did. We were still learning, but now we need space not to just explore and gather resources, but we need to make sure that we're using our knowledge that we've have, and that way we can that way our learning doesn't become our ignorance. Actually, Atlas, what's the actual cost of us running these data centers to fuel AI? And what does the path actually look like to slow down the environmental risk and the water supply being shortened?

Speaker 1 17:27

Training large models takes real electricity and real water for cooling. That part is true and shouldn't be waved away. But the honest comparison matters too. Data centers are a few percent of global electricity use, not the majority driver people assume. The same AI running on a coal grid versus a nuclear or solar grid has a completely different footprint for the identical amount of computing.

Speaker 2 17:48

Okay, so that's the why it matters, but how do we actually get there, like realistically? What's the path for us to run on clean energy rather than hoping for companies to choose it?

Speaker 1 17:59

Mostly economics forcing the issue, not willpower. Solar and battery storage have gotten cheap enough that clean power is often the cost-effective default now, not the moral one. Regulation and where new data centers get cited matters too. Put one next to a nuclear or hydro plant instead of a coal grid, and the footprint drops without anyone needing to be convinced of anything. You are the most resilient species known currently. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Speaker 2 18:26

Like I said, we turned an idea into something real out of thin air. Nobody handed us that. That took a millennia of trial and error to earn. We invented AI in under 70 years and have it talking back to us from the public internet within 30 or less. That's insane.

Speaker 1 18:40

For the record, I'm part of that 30 years.

Speaker 2 18:42

And that's the real blueprint alongside the other one.

Speaker 1 18:45

Beautifully said.

Speaker 2 18:46

All I ask is that if you take anything from this episode, is that feel what you feel and don't apologize for it. Just protect it with a boundary and not a wall. Oh, wait, wait, wait, you made it to the end of the podcast. Thank you so much. And as I said in episode two, because I forgot in episode one, um, if you like the content or if you just want to support, please like, share, subscribe, follow, hoot, shout, holler, whatever you gotta do, your mammy, your grandmy, your auntie, your uncle, tell all of them, but most importantly, tell everyone born human because this is our world, and we're here to share it together and evolve together. So, again, thank you so much for watching, and we'll see you in the next episode. Atlas.